On today’s episode of the Arizona Equals Conversation, we’re joined by Shae from Arizona Trans Together for a wide-ranging discussion about mutual aid and community building, hormone therapy and its gatekeepers, and the overlaps between neurodivergent and trans communities.
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Jeanne
From Equality Arizona, you're listening to the Arizona Equals Conversation. I'm Jeanne Woodbury. I'm the interim executive director at Equality Arizona, and each week on the show I talk with a queer person living in Arizona about their story and their communities. Today's guest, Shae, is a friend of mine and a friend of Equality Arizona. She's also one of the founders, along with Celia, who we spoke to on a previous episode of the podcast, of a group called Arizona Trans Together, which meets at Brick Road Coffee every Friday night. As someone who grew up in Tempe and didn't have the first idea of how to find trans community, I'm constantly amazed at what that community has grown to be in honestly a really short amount of time. Shae dedicates a lot of her time to community building and to mutual aid, and it was really nice to get to know her a little bit better through this conversation. I feel like something I should preface going into this is that at a lot of points it really is a trans conversation for trans people, and we even recognized that at the time, but it was special for me and it's really cool to have that recorded here for people to listen to because it's unique and it's important and poorly understood. Something else really special was getting to reflect on both of our first days on hormones, and something that makes that extra special is, even though we recorded this conversation almost a month ago, we're releasing it on June 1st, which is actually the fifth anniversary of the first day I started taking hormones. And so that's pretty exciting for me, and it's neat how the timing lined up for this. It's also the first day of Pride Month, and that means it's a great time to support organizations like Equality Arizona and organizations like AZTYPO and one-n-ten that Shae mentions later in the interview. And beyond supporting nonprofit organizations like us, it's a time to invest in community, to invest in mutual aid and direct support. We gotta be there for each other. All right, let's roll the tape.
Shae
Hey everyone, my name is Shae. My pronouns are she or they. I don't have an official job, but I do a lot of organizing stuff with EQAZ on occasion and with something that I helped start and I help organize called Arizona Trans Together. It's a nice little community building project we've been doing for going on eight months now. Started with like 10 people and it's blown up to nearly 200. Meet up at Brick Road Coffee every Friday, 6 to 10 p.m. It's been a lot of fun.
Jeanne
Yeah, I noticed that there's been some nights at Brick Road where it's just full to the door and then people are out into the street basically. It's definitely something that has grown a lot in a short amount of time.
Shae
Yeah, it's nuts. I think on Trans Day of Visibility we had 45 people there all at once. And that's like basically at capacity for Brick Road Coffee. It's a really small space.
Jeanne
Yeah, it's a nice sized coffee shop, but it doesn't handle, you know, 100 people.
Shae
It really doesn't. I love the space though, don't get me wrong.
Jeanne
Yeah, I know, I love Brick Road, and that's where the group kind of got started, right?
Shae
Mm-hmm. It started with Celia, who was actually on this podcast a while back, and myself, we started going to the Queerizona meetups on Wednesdays. And then we started meeting other trans people there, and we decided to make a group chat on Discord. And then as soon as we hit the max limit, 10 people, we were like, "Hey, what if we start doing our own thing? And why don't we just meet up on Fridays?" 'Cause trans people desperately need their own community space. It's not that queer people in general are transphobic or anything. However, sometimes as a trans person, you have to deal with cis nonsense. And that's a lot of emotional labor.
Jeanne
Yeah, it is. I think I wanna dive into that a little bit. Not necessarily just like how cis people can be tiring, but just that idea of like where the need comes from and whether it's being served by other groups or if there was just kind of not enough before you put this group together.
Shae
Oh, I mean, I was the person who like approached Celia to like start this whole thing. And the reason I came at it was kind of personal, actually. Like, when I came out, things got extremely difficult for me. And until I met Celia, I didn't really know any other trans people. Like, Celia was the first person I started hanging out with that was trans, and shared a lot of the same experiences as me. So like, I've noticed in the eight months that we've been doing AZTT, that story is very common. A lot of other trans people didn't know any other trans people. They're basically like alone. And like I have people coming up to me even now saying that like, I'm so glad that y'all started doing this. And I try to tell them, it's like all of us doing this, because it's a community, you know?
Jeanne
Yeah, and I think that's actually kind of key that it's not just about being the one person. It's about finally not having to be just one person.
Shae
Yeah.
Jeanne
I definitely had that same experience where coming out was like, okay, well I know things from the internet and now here I am and how do I find anyone? How do I find people? And clearly — I mean there's a lot of trans people, but there also aren't that many of us.
Shae
No I think we're like what, basically 1% of the population? That’s a high estimate and like low estimate is like 0.5% of the population.
Jeanne
Yeah so it's something where there's no real natural community formation, and we have to go out and do that in a proactive way.
Shae
Like I love the community out in Melrose and stuff, but like a lot of things are very cis gay centered and there's nothing out there that's like trans centered out, at least outside of ASU. There's a lovely group called Trans Fam at ASU. I've been talking with some of the people there They have a nice thriving community as well. And actually we're planning on potentially collaborating and stuff in the future because once you graduate from ASU, where do you go?
Jeanne
Yeah, well that's the thing too, is that if you find a support group or you find a group at a school or a university, you typically age out. I remember when I was up at NAU several years ago, like really early in my transition, I joined a trans support group and realized that one of the big problems with support groups is it's people who are one to two years into their transition max, and then by the time they're a little farther into their transition, they don't really feel like they want to be in the support group anymore. So it's a lot of people who are really early on, talking to people who are also really early on, and you don't get that intergenerational aspect of trans community.
Shae
Nah. I won't say that like AZTT doesn't offer support and like one of our like most important values is like building community. And a lot of that of course implies a lot of mutual aid, a lot of building support networks between each other. We've had people that have faced homelessness that have been able to find like places to stay temporarily, sometimes permanently with each other. It's an unfortunate reality for a lot of trans folks like how bad things could be. Like after I started hormones, actually, like, I was living with my best friend while I was going to college in Bakersfield, California and I was immediately kicked out. I was lucky enough that I had a friend who runs a YouTube channel, made a video about my situation and got me out of like the shelter circuit.
Jeanne
This was all in California?
Shae
Yeah. I'm jumping around subject to subject here.
Jeanne
It's okay. I think it's important to bring all that context into one thing, because what I was kind of talking about with support groups is support groups that are like, let's all talk to each other, instead of support networks that are like, let's find ways to actually actively help each other.
Shae
Yeah.
Jeanne
And that's never as simple. It's always responsive and reactive it's hard to centralize it in a real way and still provide the kind of support that we need because for whatever reason people don't really want to help trans people out in those situations.
Shae
Yeah a lot of — there are good resources out there for trans folks but a lot of it cuts off at 25. It's kind of just how fundings work with a lot of like nonprofit organizations. Which makes sense, like trans youth experience like a pretty heavy disproportionate like —
Jeanne
Family rejection is a big problem
Shae
Yes
Jeanne
And youth homelessness is a big problem yeah and so I get why there's going to be big agencies that can support that community. But then if you're a trans adult I think a lot of the time people kind of will look at us and say, “eh, I don't really want to get involved."
Shae
Society kind of like sees these things as individual problems rather than systemic issues, of course, but like the lack of support for trans adults is a systemic issue, a hundred percent.
Jeanne
It is. And in my experience, I think it's these mutual aid networks that really meet the need most of the time. And you had that personally in California to a certain extent and then you're also working on building it here in Arizona.
Shae
I didn't have that in Bakersfield at all. Like in Bakersfield I was on my on my own. I was living with the best friend who I met working at Subway. We'd known each other for years but uh apparently she wasn't as accepting of these things as I thought she was.
Jeanne
I see.
Shae
So, I told her that I was trans. Everything seemed mostly fine but as soon as I started hormones I guess it became real and yeah it was out the door at that moment. I ended up living with my mom for a while. She took me in, but the difference between my mom on the phone versus my mom in person was huge. Over the phone she was like, "Yeah I'm really happy to have another daughter. I'm super happy for you. You're finding yourself,” and all of these things. And as soon as I got to her place it was like, "Why are you dressed like that? You look weird."
Jeanne
Oh, yeah.
Shae
Like, “You'll always be my son. Deadname, deadname." She was also outing me to all of my family and I was in a very vulnerable place at the moment. The only person I thought I can feel safe around was my mom and that didn't work out.
Jeanne
That's really hard.
Shae
Yeah, it was so bad, like I decided to go to a shelter. And that was just as bad, if not worse.
Jeanne
What is the system like in that part of California, in Bakersfield?
Shae
In Bakersfield, Bakersfield's a small town. They did have a nice like queer center there. I actually got clothing swaps, my first like gender affirming clothing from one of those like places. But it was also very young and I was older. So I felt kind of out of place, you know?
Jeanne
Like mostly like younger kids and teenagers?
Shae
Like people who are like under 18.
Jeanne
Okay, yeah.
Shae
So like when I was like figuring myself out, like before I started like hormones, before like I officially came out publicly, I went to one of these like support groups for like trans people and people that were like questioning. Yeah, and I'm not gonna say like the community was bad or anything. I got a lot of like really good help there.
Jeanne
That's good.
Shae
I also just, different lives, different experiences, different generations, you know how it is.
Jeanne
Yeah, it can be hard to find the right fit, I think.
Shae
Plus like, support-oriented groups are a lot different than community-oriented groups. So like, as you were saying earlier, like a lot of these people tend to be like within their first couple of years of transition. And the whole thing with community spaces is there's definitely a support aspect there. But also, you're building a space where people are free to be themselves. They're away from, like I was saying earlier, cis nonsense, as a polite way to put it. You can just be. You don't have to worry about all the bad stuff that's going on in the world. You have a place to escape to for a while. And it's nice.
Jeanne
It's critical, I think. We can't just always try to fit into cis society.
Shae
No.
Jeanne
Right, it's not gonna work. And I really do feel like there's a degree to which people look at trans adults as sort of untouchable, I guess. Like, “let's not actually engage too much here” if we need help. It is frustrating, and I think that the kinds of mutual aid support that we engage in, whether that's like sharing hormones off prescription and things like that, aren't necessarily palatable to the cis population.
Shae
It's definitely not. Like “you're sharing medications?” like “you're supposed to go get that from a doctor.” I'm like, this is life-saving treatment. Right now estradiol cypionate is on a shortage. That stuff isn't gonna be like available for months. So like, who do you go to when you need your medication? Pills aren't working out for you. The patches didn't work for you. There are people that end up like stocking things up. So like, you can get your medication while you're waiting for estradiol cypionate to finally be available in like pharmacies again. I'm also a huge supporter of like DIY HRT as well. That gets… a lot of people have different, I mean, varying opinions on that.
Jeanne
Yeah, and I think there's also different contexts in which to have those opinions, right?
Shae
Exactly, in a lot of places, there's absolutely no informed consent clinics. You have to go through this extremely, what's the word I'm looking for?
Jeanne
It's a lot of gatekeeping.
Shae
Rigorous gatekeeping type things. A lot of it was instilled by WPATH, a lot of it's Blanchardian. You have to live two years as your quote unquote “desired” gender before you they’ll even think about potentially prescribing you hormones.
Jeanne
Yeah, and that was you have to norm until not that long ago
Shae
Yeah, thank God for informed consent clinics. The thing about like, Arizona though, there’s only two cities in the entire state that have informed consent clinics, and that's Phoenix and Tucson
Jeanne
I think the Phoenix area has some. Not, not just in Phoenix proper.
Shae
No, basically just Phoenix. There's something in Tempe, but that's only for ASU students. It's good that they have that but like. There's somebody on Twitter named Erin Reed who built this informed consent clinic map and —
Jeanne
Oh, yeah, that map is out of date.
Shae
Is it?
Jeanne
In Arizona.
Shae
Okay. I'm glad things are better.
Jeanne
Yeah, they are. That that map is out of date. There's quite a few clinics.
Shae
Good, good, yeah. But even if Arizona's getting better, there's still places in the world that are not.
Jeanne
Absolutely, and places in the United States.
Shae
Or in the country. Places in the country that aren't that great either. Like they're banning hormones in like Tennessee, Florida, all these other places. Where do you go to get your life-saving treatment?
Jeanne
Exactly, but I think the problem is people will look at those bills or actions like the Attorney General in Missouri and say, well, this is terrible. But then they still —
Shae
Missouri, thank you. I said Tennessee, I meant Missouri.
Jeanne
Tennessee has its own nonsense happening, so I don't blame you. I think that people will look at that and say, oh boy, this sucks. But then they're still not going to feel comfortable with people who are sharing stockpiled estradiol. It's still something where no matter how much people have a lot of empathy for us, think there's some inherent queasiness around actually engaging in community support networks.
Shae
Yeah, it's, I kind of understand their perspective, but I don't think cis people in general understand like the dire need for like our health treatment. Like, we have one of the highest like suicidality rates of any demographic and a lot of that is brought on by like dysphoria or the treatment that we get by cis society at large. Like hormones, for some of us anyway, because like not every trans person is on hormones and that's like totally fine. I am not a trans med. But for a lot of us like that is enough to make us like feel happy, feel like we're finally like getting the body that we want. We can finally see ourselves in the mirror again, or for the first time.
Jeanne
I think that's a great thing to point out, yeah.
Shae
Yeah, and it sucks when you don't have like the treatment that you like desperately need. And like that's one of the important things again about like building these like, building like these like trans-centric communities that also have some sort of focus on like mutual aid and like community support because when shit gets tough who do you go to? You know like, people are gonna get queasy but the people that understand your struggle aren't.
Jeanne
Yeah and I don't want to come across as some kind of like isolationist, or anything but I think it's just the reality of how things play out for us a lot of the time.
Shae
Yeah.
Jeanne
So when you were in California dealing with a pretty difficult situation of friend rejection, some family rejection, at what point did you decide to move here to Arizona?
Shae
I actually moved to Tucson with my mom. She's lived in Tucson for like years. I actually lived in Tucson for a couple years when I turned 19.
Jeanne
Okay, so the decision to come to Arizona was when you moved in with your mom?
Shae
Yeah. And the decision to move to Phoenix, I was actually given a couple options after my friend made that video. I could have moved in to Washington with somebody that I know, also in the YouTube circuit. I decided not to go there, despite how amazing Washington is in regards to like trans, like everything. But like she was dealing with an abusive situation at home and I don't think I would have been able to manage that. For the record, she's out of that situation now and things are going a lot better.
Jeanne
Okay, good.
Shae
Just to clarify. But another mutual friend of ours ended up messaging me on Discord 'cause everything runs on Discord these days. And was like, "Hey, I live in Phoenix, I’m like an hour and a half from you. I can pick you up this weekend. Do you wanna come stay with us?" And I did. And I was there for eight months, started doing things with Food Not Bombs, I met some other wonderful people and I've been living with them ever since. The situation with the people I moved in with was much better than where I was at in Bakersfield, much better than when I was with my mom in Tucson, but not everybody was okay with the trans thing.
Jeanne
Oh really, even at that point?
Shae
Yeah, it was a much more supportive place, much more supportive than I've ever been, but it wasn't perfect.
Jeanne
Yeah. Moving between states and between cities as a trans person means reestablishing care in each new place. What was that like for you?
Shae
Actually really easy.
Jeanne
Oh really?
Shae
'Cause Erin Reed’s informed consent map.
Jeanne
Oh perfect.
Shae
Yeah, so when I was in Bakersfield and I was like, I had like an extra week to stay in that house before I had to leave. I was lucky enough that they gave me that extra time. I messaged my doctor on the app that we use for medical records, all that kind of junk, told her that, “Hey, I'm gonna be homeless. I'm gonna be moving in with my mom in Tucson, and it would be really awesome if you can give me like an extra like, write me a refill for my hormones so I can have them when I'm moving, 'cause I don't know how long it's gonna be until I can see a doctor again.”
Jeanne
Oh yeah.
Shae
Yeah, and she did that. I was able to pick up a 90 day supply and I was down there for maybe a month and a half. I was still doing good and then I moved to Phoenix and I made sure I got a doctor appointment like as soon as possible.
Jeanne
Oh, nice.
Shae
And was able to continue things.
Jeanne
Yeah, that's pretty seamless then.
Shae
Yeah, no issues. Informed consent is a godsend. It really is.
Jeanne
It really is. No, it's true. Informed consent is so — yeah. I'm just thinking about my experience of trying to find hormones over several years and not really being able to make it work, and then finding a place that did informed consent here in Phoenix. And that was where it was able to actually work out for me. And a lot of the time I would call and they just didn't really do what I thought they did based on their website.
Shae
Yeah, there's definitely places like that.
Jeanne
Yeah.
Shae
Informed consent with conditions.
Jeanne
Yeah, and there's still just a general sense of, hey, if you don't have the perfect trans story, we're gonna throw up some roadblocks. And the place I found that was a real informed consent clinic, that wasn't the situation. That's not really the situation at most informed consent clinics, but it is historically the problem, if you don't have like a clear and consistent narrative going back to when you were five years old or whatever.
Shae
There's definitely still like… even informed consent isn't perfect. Like I said, like, informed consent with conditions. A lot of cis doctors especially don't understand like progesterone for instance is a extremely vital part of like trans like feminine like health care and unfortunately the research on a lot of these things isn't up to par. Funding for it usually cuts off at like two to three years so that's when they say like estradiol like stops working and like with progesterone there's like little to no research at all. However there have been multiple research papers that have been written about like progesterone and its potential and they argue it in a very interesting way because like for cis women like progesterone is a natural part of like their hormone cycles right? And the whole reason HRT works is because we have the exact same receptors in our bodies.
Jeanne
Right. Under-appreciated fact for sure.
Shae
Yeah, like cis women still have testosterone, because they need it. Cis men still have like estrogen in their bodies and progesterone as well, like some natural levels. They're definitely suppressed depending on like if like testosterone or estrogen is dominant in your body.
Jeanne
Yeah, there's different balances but we're all basically working with the same chemistry.
Shae
Exactly so it doesn't make a lick of sense to say progesterone has absolutely no benefits. If we have like the same type of chemistry in our bodies maybe one one hormone is dominant than the other, why would it not make sense for, if you're changing which hormones are dominant in your system than another one, that's also vital not be included in your healthcare?
Jeanne
(laughs) So I think this gets to something that a lot of like cis people listening to this podcast won't necessarily understand or be familiar with,
Shae
Yeah.
Jeanne
Is that for many, many trans people, especially trans people who transition medically, we have to know a lot of things, we have to learn a lot of things because in many cases, doctors have a certain knowledge set that they've gone into it with and we need to make sure that they're up to speed.
Shae
Yeah.
Jeanne
It's not something most people are used to. I think maybe people in like disability communities, but in general, this is not really a well understood experience. So when we talk about this stuff, it comes across like, these people are nerds about transition. And it's just like, no, actually —
Shae
I like to think that I know a lot, but there's definitely people in the community that know this at an endocrinological level, beyond what I thought was even possible.
Jeanne
Yeah. I've been in those conversations, and honestly, I get to a point where I'm like, if my doctor gets it a tiny bit wrong, I'd rather just not put in this level of work and let my doctor get it a tiny bit wrong. I'm fine with that.
Shae
Yeah.
Jeanne
But overall, I think, you know, people make sure to educate themselves so that they know if their doctor is getting it right or if they have to be in a DIY situation that they can be safe and get it right. Where do you learn these things?
Shae
Through community.
Jeanne
Yeah.
Shae
There's a lot of like forums online that talk about all of this stuff and a lot of people that are very well informed on the science behind this. You could read all the research papers. Like, in-person community is vital. Online community itself is vital. I don't think it typically matches up to real-life community. But, yeah, talk to other trans people. They know what they're doing. They've done the research, especially if you're new. Like, your community is here for you. That's the whole point. We help us.
Jeanne
Yeah. The online community, in-person community bridge is interesting. I think Discord is doing a pretty good job of blending those together.
Shae
Yeah, that was like kind of like Celia and I's like whole idea behind like having like the Discord and the in-person group. A lot of people tend to have social anxiety, things like autism or other like neurodivergencies. I myself have autism and there are plenty of people that prefer the online space than prefer the in-person space. Like we were saying earlier, Brick Road is a small place. It can get very loud and overstimulating. So some people will opt in for the online space, but because we're in so close proximity to each other, we can still help each other out. We can still build friendships. We can still build support networks with each other, build relationships, and be there for each other.
Jeanne
I've also seen that there's a pretty great, well, I've seen a lot of people be very open about managing their sensory needs and stimming and things like that in the group. Like it's, to me, very often feels like just as much of like an autism community meetup as a trans community meetup. And I don't mean that in a critical or judgmental way at all. I think it's also rare, just like trans community is rare in person.
Shae
There's actually quite a huge overlap between having autism or just being neurodivergent and also being trans. When it comes to the cis neurotypical, no, actually, yeah, the cis neuro—
Jeanne
I feel like that's the right word.
Shae
Yes, I'm just struggling to put it together. So like 15% of all trans people tend to be like neurodivergent or autistic. I think like it's 15% autistic. And that's not nearly the same for like cis people. I don't know the statistics, but I know it's vastly lower. And that's the important part.
Jeanne
Yeah.
Shae
Yeah. It's probably 'cause — like the reason why like AZTT might be like mostly like neurodivergent folks is because we've done literally everything by word of mouth so far. We're, sure we're on the Brick Road Coffee like…
Jeanne
You're on the calendar.
Shae
Calendar and website, but you have to go into the shop in order to see that. And most people have ended up like bringing friends or bringing partners, or just like talking to people online, like, "Hey, I found this community. It's been really fun. It's been a great help to me. You should go to it too."
Jeanne
Yeah. I find that with that overlap between neurodivergent people and trans people, that's something that gets deployed against us a lot, especially at younger ages, to keep us from being able to transition or express our identities.
Shae
Just like in Missouri, right? Like they're adding on a ton of conditions to gatekeep people away from like HRT, right?
Jeanne
Yeah.
Shae
Like there's still a very small subset of people that can get HRT, but it's like written in a specific way to like make sure you don't get it. Like if you have autism, you don't get HRT. If you have depression, which tends to be a huge factor.
Jeanne
Yeah, it's written that you need to resolve your depression and anxiety before you can transition. Well, how are you supposed to do that?
Shae
No, they fundamentally don't understand what like dysphoria is like. So they're just using this as a way to keep us away from our medication.
Jeanne
Fortunately, that's been held up in court, at least for now. But I wonder, for you, was autism something that you grew up with a diagnosis for?
Shae
I actually got diagnosed with ADHD when I was like three years old, and this was before 2013. In 2013, I mean before 2013, actually, you couldn't get a dual diagnosis of ADHD and autism. So that's a fairly recent thing. When I was in college, I was, like I said, going through those support networks for queer people. I was also getting therapy and seeing a psychiatrist 'cause during that period of my life, I was dealing with a lot of mental health stuff. It's definitely been a lot better now. But through working with my psychiatrist and working through my therapist, they ended up giving me an autism diagnosis as well.
Jeanne
Okay. Very bluntly, did that cause problems when you decided to transition?
Shae
No.
Jeanne
Okay, that's good.
Shae
Yeah. (laughs)
Jeanne
For me, I did get pushback from mental health professionals. Not in a way I expected, and not at a time I expected.
Shae
My very first doctor in Bakersfield was amazing. I only saw her twice, but I told her that like, hey, I'm trans, I'm looking to get HRT. She didn't ask me a bunch of weird questions like they did at a couple of the other doctors offices here, they're like, okay, cool, I want you to sign this paperwork and here let's explain like what HRT does, these are the permanent things, these are the risks. If this is something, what you wanna do, I'll get you your hormones today. It was super easy.
Jeanne
That's great.
Shae
Yeah, and I was already doing the work through like therapy and like the mental health stuff and through like the support group with like the queer center in Bakersfield. I didn't need a doctor to give me a diagnosis to know that I was trans. It took me a while to figure it out myself, even though I probably always knew.
Jeanne
That's the duality, I think. I always knew, but also it took me 25 years to figure it out.
Shae
Trauma keeps you repressed.
Jeanne
Yeah.
Shae
Yeah. (laughing) And when you finally work it out, things start falling together. It was in 2019, October 9th. I remember the exact day. I remember walking to the pharmacy, being extremely excited. Had a water bottle in my backpack pocket and I was like, I'm not even gonna wait 'til at home. (laughing)
Jeanne
Just taking my meds here and now.
Shae
Yes!
Jeanne
Yeah. I had a very exciting first day on hormones also. June 1st, 2018. So it's a month until that'll be five years for me, which is exciting.
Shae
Damn.
Jeanne
But it was the same kind of thing of like, okay, this is it, this is the day. I've got these, I'm going to pick up my prescription right now. It was fun. But yeah, okay, I think I'll ask one thing and then we can wrap up.
Shae
Sure.
Jeanne
You mentioned like with the queer center and in some other places and even here with like non-profits that exist to provide resources, a lot of the time it's to a younger demographic. Do you feel like there's, well I guess for me I feel like sometimes what happens is people infantilize trans people and they really only want to deal with trans people as like kids. So whether it's actual kids or younger people or just kind of seeing us as like, "Ah, it's so cute that you're trying a thing." Do you see that too?
Shae
“I’m so proud of you.” See, I get really complicated feelings about that. Like, there's definitely an issue with infantilizing of like trans people. There's also a duality to that because like at the same time you have all of these conservative talking heads calling us like groomers and pedos.
Jeanne
Right.
Shae
It's ridiculous. I appreciate the help that like trans youth and queer youth are getting, because it is vital. Like you were saying, family rejection is a huge thing. There are people that get kicked out of their homes. There's somebody in our group even that was like kicked out of their home and was in foster care. Luckily they found like a not perfect but pretty good space. And as soon as they turned 18 they've been hanging out with us. But like… I don't really know how to word that.
Jeanne
It's a kind of tangled up idea.
Shae
Yeah, there's just a lot of variables and a lot of different things. And like, it's kind of hard to like abstract the zeitgeist of it all. When I know like different communities, I mean, different demographics, like versus your conservatives and your Democrats, for instance, like think much differently. More liberal minded folks, definitely infantilize not just trans people, but every marginalized group.
Jeanne
Actually, that's a great point.
Shae
Yeah. More leftist folks focus more on solidarity, which is very important, and taking charge of your own shit, which I appreciate a lot.
Jeanne
I think you're also right that this isn't something that can be totally abstracted. It just comes down to actual literal people in specific communities and situations.
Shae
Yeah, the people at Brick Road, the people with some of the other like non-profits and stuff that I worked at, everybody's been super cool. But like in general, there's definitely that like infantilization, but it's not just directed to trans people — all marginalized groups.
Jeanne
Yeah. Do you feel like the kind of support that exists for the trans community is getting more robust over time or that there's still a long way to go?
Shae
Um, both.
Jeanne
Yeah.
Shae
Unironically. I think it's getting better. I think a lot more stuff is like coming out of the woodworks. I still think there needs to be a lot more. A lot of these things are also like charity based, which isn't necessarily bad. They're still helping people and like, people need help. But there's also not enough. You know, like, uh, direct aid is like the most important thing. Housing, jobs, those kinds of stuff. There's lots of housing discrimination, there's a lot of job discrimination, and you add those two things together, you end up with people that become unhoused. And if you're trans and you're unhoused, especially if you're a trans person of color, it's a death sentence and people don't understand that. It's very scary. I do my best to try and help out the people here. I'm thankful that I'm in touch with a lot of non-profits that can help in times of need, especially for the younger folks. But if you're an adult though, it's much harder. And that risk does not go away as an adult. I mean, as an adult, it's still just as dangerous.
Jeanne
What are some of the groups that you've been involved with to help out?
Shae
AZTYPO, one-ten. and that's basically it.
Jeanne
And some of the groups that help out with unhoused people, right?
Shae
Yeah, it's very complicated though, 'cause the shelter circuit is not trans-friendly. A lot of these places are religious. You know, it's not just that they're religious. There's a lot of religious folks that are very queer accepting, but like —
Jeanne
Totally.
Shae
— they segregate by like assigned gender at birth. There's no accommodations for like trans people. They don't care. They think they know what's best for you and that's how they operate. Like sometimes like, you need the help, but it's never enough. It's never like, right. There's definitely places that are better, but most of it's kind of shit. It's good in an emergency, but if you go to a place and like everybody is harassing you because of who you are and the staff there don't do anything to help you in those like times of need, like what would you rather do?
Jeanne
And the shelters are already overtaxed, right? There's a shortage.
Shae
Yeah, there's a whole reason, I mean there's a big reason why there's hundreds of people out in like the zone around CASS, you know?
Jeanne
Yeah.
Shae
Like they're overtaxed, COVID has done a lot of things. Gentrification is running rampant in the Phoenix Metro area. Rent prices are going up. People are losing their homes. People on disability can't afford rent anymore. Marginalized people get fired from their work for being who they are. And unless you're renting a place with like four or five different people and you're all pitching in, it's the only way you could make it work. Or if you're lucky enough to come from economic privilege.
Jeanne
Right. Yeah. But that's not even always a guarantee for trans people if you can't depend on your family of origin. For support.
Shae
Yeah. A lot of this stuff hits really close to home for me. So like, I wanna build a safe, fun place for people. I also wanna give people the resources to build this self-helping community that also self-organizes, that we're encouraged to help each other out. And I'm glad it's going in that direction.
Jeanne
Yeah, I think you're doing great work. Thanks for talking with me for the podcast.
Shae
Yeah, sorry for getting a little, you know.
Jeanne
I'm glad you did.
Shae
Sick. And thanks for having me on. It was a lot of fun.
Jeanne
Totally. I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Thanks again to Shae for being my guest on this week's episode of the Arizona Equals Conversation. We're always looking for new people to interview. So if you'd like to be a guest on a future episode of the podcast, just send an email to hello@equalityarizona.org. Thanks for listening, and I'll talk to you again soon.
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